DAVID PETERSON - WONG SHUN LEUNG WING CHUN - MELBOURNE CHINESE MARTIAL ARTS CLUB AUSTRALIA

Wong Shun Leung Ving Tsun Gung-Fu A Scientific Approach to Combat'
by David Peterson

Personal Protection Concepts for survival in the street'
by Andrew Williams, Rolf Clausnitzer and David Peterson

Ving Tsun by Definition Getting It Right ...the "Wong Way"!!!
by David Peterson & Enzo Verratti

What i have learnt through "Beimo" by Sifu Wong Shun Leung

Break it Down with David Peterson Wing Chun's 'Soh Sau' Technique
by David Peterson

Get Out Of The Way, ...And Make Them Pay The Street-Effective Footwork Of Wing Chun
by David Peterson

BIU JI: Ving Tsun's Misunderstood Form by David Peterson

The Wing Chun forms - A brief overview by David Peterson

Wong Shun Leung: Wing Chun Personified by David Peterson

Wing Chun History - an alternative viewpoint by David Peterson

Wong Shun Leung, the Legend By Cliff Au-Yeung and Lewis Luk
Translated by Buick Yip and David Peterson

Wong Shun Leung: The Legend Behind the Legend Recalling the Life of Bruce Lee's Teacher
by David Peterson

David Peterson: If you always assume that there's always something to learn, you will always be successful! COMBAT magazine (UK)

Wandering the Path an interview with David Peterson
Martial Arts Illustrated' magazine (UK)

Wandering the Path
an interview with David Peterson
By Alan Orr

The following interview was originally published in ‘Martial Arts Illustrated’ magazine, Vol.16/No.6, in November 2003.

Introduction

Things always happen for a reason, believe me! Just a few months ago I was chatting with Bob, when he asked me if I would maybe interview another well-known Wing Chun instructor. I think he was just trying to wind me up as normal. I laughed and said, “Hell, no way! That guy’s Wing Chun is terrible.” Bob told me, “You Wing Chun guys are all the same, always disagreeing.” Now, he is right in some ways. Most Wing Chun guys always want to tell each other how to do Wing Chun. But, times have changed and I think that a lot of people now realise that Wing Chun is not what it seems. To learn the system is not that hard, but to really know the system, …not many do. “Well,” I said to Bob at the time, “It’s not that I have a closed mind to other Wing Chun styles, it’s just that I have been taught to understand the system very well by my teacher, Robert Chu. Therefore I can now see what is good Wing Chun and what is not.” Sometimes to others (who can’t see the system the way I do) it may appear that I am not open-minded. I know that this happens, but it is because they are the ones with the closed mind. I learned Wing Chun three times on my path, each time not knowing if it was right or wrong. The way that my teacher Robert Chu taught me was with this vast knowledge of the styles and systems of Wing Chun. Firstly he taught me his Body Structure. Then he showed me all the differences in Wing Chun and variations from style to style. He asked me which ones worked, which ones didn’t. He then showed me his system and straight away I could see what he had been teaching me. He had given me the keys to understanding the correct structure of how the system works. From that day onwards it has been as if a mist has cleared for me. So, now I feel very strongly about teaching people to understand what they are taught, not just following for years in the hope that it will work in the end. If it doesn’t work now, it’s not going to work then! So closed mind or Clear mind?

Now one of the styles of Wing Chun I looked at was the Wong Shun Leung Method. This is a direct and efficient method with many merits. It is one of the only systems taught in this country that I have often recommended to people besides the Chu Sau Lei System that I teach myself.

So, it was great to receive a call from David Peterson Sifu who is a renowned teacher of the WSL Method. I thought this would be a good chance to interview David for MAI. This way you get an insight into the WSL Method and I get to show Bob that not all Wing Chun guys are the same!

David Peterson, 46, has been training in the Chinese martial arts since 1973. He became a student of Sifu Wong Shun Leung after travelling to Hong Kong in 1983. He is a graduate of the University of Melbourne, where he majored in Chinese studies, and a teacher of the Chinese language for over twenty years.

David Peterson is one of only two qualified instructors of Wong’s system in Australia, authorised by Sifu Wong personally before his death, and a fully endorsed member of the world-wide ‘Wong Shun Leung Ving Tsun (Wing Chun) Martial Arts Association’ and the Hong Kong-based 'Ving Tsun Athletic Association'

David Peterson is the author of ‘Look Beyond the Pointing Finger: the Combat Philosophy of Wong Shun Leung’, the first-ever English language book on his teacher’s interpretation of the Wing Chun system, published in September of 2001.

Alan Orr:

How was your trip to the UK?

David Peterson:

It went very well indeed, providing a great opportunity to meet like-minded individuals and share the vast wealth of knowledge and experience that my late Sifu has left behind. All the sessions that I took were well attended and the feedback I have received since has indicated that everyone who came along enjoyed what we did and left with something useful to add to his or her own training, …and it wasn't a one-sided exchange either! I should take this opportunity to thank those who helped to make it possible for me to visit your shores, the two prime motivators being Sifu Jim Halliwell and Sifu Alan Gibson. These two guys really set the ball in motion last year by toying with the idea of having me come over. In addition, Sifu Ged Kennerk in Manchester, who helped enormously with the organisation of travel, accommodation and so on, and Sifu Clive Potter, who made it possible to meet many of the practitioners of the WSL Method in the London area, must be thanked for all that they did to make this such a pleasant trip for my wife and I on our very first visit to the UK.

Alan Orr:

It is funny that you contacted me as the WSL system is one of the systems of Wing Chun taught in this country that I feel is in the right direction. Many of the others I have seen are like different arts to me. Its still amazes me how two people can take a concept and come out with two so different interpretations. Why do you think some are missing the point by so much, …is it that lack of real experience or a lack of depth of understanding?

David Peterson:

It’s more likely to be a little of both. You see, the late Grandmaster Yip Man was not too fond of teaching and had very little time for people with less than excellent ability. In short, he really didn’t teach too many people all that much, meaning that many of those in the ‘Yip Man School’ acquired their knowledge from second-hand and even third-hand sources. In fact, apart from a mere handful of very gifted and more favoured individuals, few actually learnt the whole system from Yip, and even fewer again ever put their knowledge to the test. As Wong Sifu told us many times, if students did not hear the message the first time, things were rarely repeated, thus free interpretation of the system became the norm and as we all know, if the teacher isn’t in the classroom all the time, the students can end up getting it all mixed up. Those who engaged in the ‘beimo’ (challenge fights) of the 50s and 60s discovered much about themselves and the art, with Wong Sifu being one who possibly received the most from these exchanges and thus ended up with a very practical method of applying the Wing Chun concepts. Others, relying more or less entirely on “classroom battles”, by and large ended up over analysing and distorting the concepts and techniques of the system to the point where much of what is taught in some Wing Chun schools today is neither practical nor indeed recognisable as being from the same lineage.

Alan Orr:

What is it that makes WSL method different to other Yip Man Wing Chun?

David Peterson:

I guess that, first and fore mostly, my teacher took the art out into the "pavement arena" of Hong Kong and really used it, unlike most of his contemporaries who basically limited their "fighting" to the classroom situation. As such, he developed insights into the system and its potential (as well as his own) that took his approach to a whole other level. In brief, and without trying to upset anyone, the WSL Method cuts through all the crap and gets down to the business of dealing with the enemy with the most SIMPLE, DIRECT and EFFICIENT response, minus all the fancy and unnecessary "arm-chasing" and over-analysing that most other Wing Chun people get themselves into. It utilises practical training methods that give quick results, and does NOT fall into the trap of reading too much into actions in the forms, treating them as textbooks of structure, concepts and strategy, rather than set routines or sequences. In short, the WSL Method teaches the student of the system to THINK, to take the "tools" that Wing Chun provides, and make something useful with them, rather than be bound up in the
world of "what ifs" that plague other martial artists and martial art systems.

Alan Orr:

What is WSL method to you? Would you say it a style or system of Wing Chun?

David Peterson:

I would prefer to regard it as a system, rather than a style, as it is far more than just a subtle interpretational variation on the Wing Chun system, or different merely by the addition or omission of one or more techniques of Wing Chun as it is done elsewhere. Wong Sifu himself referred to what he taught as 'Wing Chun Kuen Hok', which translates loosely as the "Science of Wing Chun Pugilism". He had spent many years analysing and
researching what he had both learned from his teacher and discovered for himself about Wing Chun during his own training and experimentation in the "real" world, and as such, what he taught was very much a complete system of Wing Chun that we now refer to as the 'WSL Method.'

Alan Orr:

What about your own path? Have you added or changed your application of your teacher’s methods to suit your way?

David Peterson:

As far as possible, I have attempted to consciously teach the forms and basic techniques/concepts exactly as they were taught to me, in keeping with what Sifu said was a most important feature of Wing Chun tradition, to “Teach the system to the next generation as you were taught it in order to keep the art strong”. Having said that, it is also quite obvious that my own personality, physique and other attributes (or lack of them!) will have in some ways have “flavoured” the way in which I teach and perform or apply the system. This is exactly what my teacher insisted MUST take place, that one must make the system work for themselves, and not simply mimic the teacher or perform like a robot. “Be the MASTER of Wing Chun, and not it’s SLAVE” is the often-quoted sentence that my teacher repeated on many occasions. In the classroom, I utilise drills taught to me by Sifu, and drills developed by myself to meet the needs of individual students. This is no different to what Sifu did himself. On many an occasion I saw him come up with an example or exercise on the spot for a specific problem that a student was experiencing, and as a classroom teacher away from the martial arts, I know that this is an integral factor of the job. Overall, I would hope that I have not strayed too far from what I was shown, but I also hope that in my own way, I have contributed something of merit to the future development of the system through what I might have “discovered” or “modified” in the process of my own teaching and training.

Alan Orr:

Yes, I’ve often said similar things to my students; ‘drills come and go’. A lot of Wing Chun seems to be over focussed on Chi Sao and in doing so they forget the original intension is to fight. What do you teach in terms of sparring and where does your Chi Sao fit into it?

David Peterson:

For a start, we do not engage in the kind of sparring that is prevalent in most martial arts schools. That kind of “tit for tat” fighting is too far removed from real combat to be of any real value to combat proficiency. Our preference is to engage in what I refer to as “open drills”, whereby we try to replicate the emotional and physical pressure of a real situation by dealing with an opponent who is actually trying very hard to hit us in an unrehearsed and totally committed way. These drills can be limited to certain kinds of attacks, such as straight attacks, or round attacks, etc, or else they can be totally unrestricted whereby anything and everything can occur. The idea here is to put the Wing Chun exponent under as much pressure as possible, giving them only split seconds to deal with the situation and get it under control. These drills are often done with role-play incorporated in them, so that there is verbal interaction as well, adding to the realism and aggression being experienced and pushing the adrenaline levels up to where they are going to be when faced with the reality of a violent confrontation. Minimal protective gear is worn so that the pain factor is real (there is no better motivation for getting out of the way than knowing that if you don’t, it’s going to hurt for real!), and the level of pressure placed on the students is always relevant to their level of experience. Occasionally, we might have one or both practitioners “gear up” and go full blast for a few minutes so as to experience the impact and the energy drain that comes from such an encounter. The whole idea is to familiarise the student with what it really feels like to be on the wrong end of an attack so that they firstly appreciate how important it is to avoid a confrontation in the first place, and secondly, so that they can control their fear reaction and turn that into as powerful part of their arsenal. Chi Sao is an important part of the WSL Method, but it is only one factor amongst many. What is required is a balance in the training regime. Over reliance on Chi Sao can be detrimental to a student’s development and fighting ability, but under reliance on Chi Sao detracts from the development of certain attributes that are absolutely essential to mastering Wing Chun. My Sifu always impressed upon us that we do not engage with our opponent with the intention of doing Chi Sao with him, but with the intention of hitting him. However, if he tries to prevent us from hitting him, either by holding us, pushing us or intercepting our attack, that’s when our Chi Sao skills come into play. As combat is a totally unpredictable event, we can’t overlook the need for improving and enhancing our tactile responses, hence Chi Sao training is invaluable for preparing our neural system for situations where contact reflexes can make the difference between victory and defeat. In short, Chi Sao is important and we try to incorporate it in virtually every training situation, but it is not the be all and end all of Wing Chun and must be balanced off against form, basics, partner drills, role play and a range of other activities so that a balanced approach results. One of the dangers of Chi Sao training is that it can lead to a lot of over-analysing, whereby Wing Chun devotees start “chasing the hands” and end up inventing unnecessarily complicated and unrealistic routines and/or techniques for situations that will never eventuate. In the WSL Method, we only have a handful of what you might term “set attacks/defences” so as to teach the fundamental concepts of what Chi Sao is all about, and then from there on in it’s all about what just “happens”, as opposed to what we “set up” in the exercise. This makes the Chi Sao far more alive and closer to what might happen when one collides with the opponent and has only milliseconds to come up with a useful response at a totally sub-conscious level.

Alan Orr:

What has the Wing Chun training taught you in life?

David Peterson:

By and large, it has taught me to always seek the most obvious and logical way of dealing with any situation. It has shown me, by example, that flowing with a situation and applying simplicity is the best method. I have learnt patience and tolerance of others, realising that everyone has their own approach to various things and no one method has all the answers. Having said that, Wing Chun has also taught me to have a critical eye so as to see through the B.S. and to never follow anyone’s advice blindly. Sifu always taught that one should keep an open mind and seek better ways of doing everything, to put things to the test constantly so as to discover the inadequacies of the method, or our own inadequacy, be it a martial art technique or an aspect of daily life. In following his example, I have tried to improve myself in some way each and every day, to never assume that I know everything, and to always seek knowledge. Wing Chun not only challenges the physical body, it also challenges the mind and the ego. If one sticks at it long enough, I believe that Wing Chun takes away the need to rely on the flimsy “strength” that we derive from pride and ego, and we learn to accept our limitations and try to improve upon them, instead of always competing with the next guy. People often ask me if my teacher was a violent man, considering his reputation as a fearless fighter and someone who sought out challenges. In actual fact, this is most definitely not the case at all, but rather an indication of how he was influenced by his Wing Chun to constantly test the limits of his own ability under pressure. Wong Shun Leung didn’t fight because he liked to inflict (or receive) pain, but because he was striving to improve himself mentally and emotionally as a human being, with Wing Chun simply serving as the vehicle to do this. I do not, even for an instant, place myself on the same level as my Sifu, as I am neither the fighter nor the teacher that he was, …and probably never will be! What I am trying to say is this; like him, I am hoping that through the training and teaching of Wing Chun, specifically the ‘WSL Method’, I will also become something of a better human being and also leave behind something of merit for my family and students. That’s why I have actively campaigned to promote his legacy through writing and through seminars, this trip to the UK being part of that effort. This is why I don’t want anyone to see me as some kind of “Wing Chun cowboy”, trying to boost my own reputation or defeat an endless stream of challengers, but instead simply as an individual who was given a priceless treasure by a very gifted and wise man, and who now wants to share that treasure so that others can also benefit as individuals by following the example, adapting some of the methods, and experiencing, albeit by proxy, the brilliance of the Wong Shun Leung approach to the Wing Chun system. I am not the master gunfighter (alas, he is no longer amongst us), I am just the messenger, …please don’t shoot the messenger, just spare a moment to hear the message and see what you might gain from it.

Alan Orr:

Why do you think so many guys get upset with the progress that Wing Chun systems like Chu Sau Lei and WSL Methods bring?

David Peterson:

If I get your meaning, I presume that you are referring to the fact that many practitioners of other lineages are critical of our tendency to make what they see as “modifications” to the more “traditional” methods or ideas. To my way of thinking, I find it hard to understand why anyone would feel threatened by ideas or methods that lead to an improvement in the way that their Wing Chun can deal with the reality of combat. It would seem, however, that the logical approach that we take to preparing for combat is seen as in some way detracting from the art because we are not sticking to the original elements. Well, on that point I beg to differ because I firmly believe, as did my late teacher, that the whole point of Wing Chun is to constantly strive to find better methods of dealing with the opponent, just as the originators of the system strove to find ways to overcome the traditional fighting arts of their day. It’s all about evolving, about realising that times change and the methods of dealing with the enemy changes too. You don’t see the Australian SAS or the British Commandos going to battle wearing the bright red battle dress and using the “walk up and get shot” battle strategies of the 1700s, do you? As the environment and weaponry of combat evolves, the fighting methods must also evolve. Wong Shun Leung was forever impressing upon us the importance of seeking to improve on the training method and application of the concepts, and not to get bogged down in the number of techniques in the forms, the height of the hand or the choice of weapon. With him it was simple; always look for a way to attack, let the opponent show you the best way to do so, and strike the nearest target with the closest weapon. Fighting is an ugly business, yet so many martial artists, not just Wing Chun practitioners, are too concerned with the aesthetics of their respective methods, …who gives a damn what it looks like as long as it works? There aren’t any prizes for getting bashed up while looking good, …you either survive the assault or you don’t. In this modern day and age, we have the advantage of sports science and modern training devices to add a whole new dimension to our development as martial artists. We have access to the Internet, and therefore no longer live in a vacuum, but have the benefit of many minds with whom we can interact and exchange ideas and knowledge. We would be fools to continue doing things the same old “traditional” way if it means not progressing as individuals, let alone improving the arts that we love. And then there is the issue of money. Many individuals in the martial arts “industry” are there to make a buck and as such, depend very much upon so-called traditions and mythology to weave a spell over their potential “clients” so as to string them on for years at a time while giving them very little real combat skills. They treat their students like mushrooms, keeping them in the dark and feeding them B.S. instead of offering them something of substance. They hide behind fancy titles or claim ability through hereditary connections which, in the end, don’t add up to very much. The Chu Sau Lei and WSL Methods cut through all that nonsense and put things into their true perspective. They offer a realistic approach to combat that is backed up with research, logic and science. In short, they treat the student with respect and teach them how to think, something that charlatan instructors are afraid to do because they know that if the students learn to think, they will soon see through the charade. I had ten years of my martial arts “stolen” from me by just such a teacher, and I won’t be found guilty of doing the same to my students. My Sifu always said, “You can always make more money, but you can’t make more time” and that’s why his method is such a good one because it doesn’t waste your time, it gives you good skills very quickly.

Alan Orr:

I had the same sort of experience. It is sad that we both had to waste a long period of time finding the real teachers like Wong Shun Leung and Robert Chu. But I believe these experiences have made us more focused on spreading the true meaning of the art. I think people are now just starting to see through a lot of what was originally being taught in Wing Chun, so the circle is completing.

David Peterson:

Yes, I believe that this is what has prompted me the most to teach, the desire to prevent others from being taken down the wrong pathway by unscrupulous instructors who are just out for the fame, glory and the “big bucks” that seem to go hand in hand with this kind of dishonest behaviour. People are getting more wary, what with the Internet and various publications such as this one, and they are becoming more aware of what to look for in a martial arts school, but there are still many traps out there for the unwary and those who have unfailing trust in the person out in front of the class. Once upon a time, because of my own experiences, I used to get quite angry about such teachers and, rightly or wrongly, felt as though I should get out there and “save” everyone from the same fate. These days my only real concern is for my own students, but through my writing, and more recently through seminars in various places, I hope that I am helping to educate more people so that they can separate the good from the bad. That’s why when I write, I try to make sure that I do so in such a way as to have the reader get to the end of the article and feel that they have actually gained something from the time spent, instead of just boring them with gibberish or proclaiming how wonderful I think that I am, …those kinds of articles annoy me and I don’t want to be associated with those kinds of people. I promote my teacher, and I promote his system, and I do so by sharing the knowledge rather than just glorifying either through pointless dribble. Nothing makes me happier than to hear from someone that they actually learnt something from an article of mine that they have read, …that’s reward enough for me.

Alan Orr:

Well, it’s been great to have an open-minded talk on Wing Chun with someone who shares the same want to spread real Wing Chun. I am sure the readers will have gained from hearing from you.

David Peterson:

Thank you for the opportunity to talk about my teacher and his legacy and thanks to the readers if they have made it to the end without getting too bored. I hope that I haven’t offended anyone with my views and that, perhaps, I have offered your readership some ideas that they can apply to their own training. It has been a pleasure chatting with you, Alan.

Training Tip: Remember. Truth or opinion. Do not take new or different ideas as personal attacks. One man’s truth is to another man just an opinion. That’s not to say that on hearing an opinion that it can’t then become your truth as well.

Wandering the Path an interview with David Peterson By Alan Orr

Introduction

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Wandering the Path
an interview with David Peterson
By Alan Orr